gkesden	try that again -- yo!	11:05
gregdek	Our chairman is here!	11:06
humph	hi gkesden	11:06
mchua	gkesden: YAY!	11:06
azneita	yay! :D	11:06
ctyler	Excellent!	11:06
lh	gkesden: hello	11:06
gkesden	sorry -- embarassing -- I confused UTC	11:06
humph	s'ok	11:06
gkesden	Ciera saved me	11:06
* ciera (n=chatzill@VOLTAGE.ISRI.CMU.EDU) has joined #teachingopensource		11:06
* ctyler high-fives Ciera		11:07
humph	gkesden: so you're at cmu too, then?	11:07
gkesden	yes	11:07
humph	10:27 * humph has been working with a couple of students from cmu on mozilla bugs, impressive guys.	11:07
* ctyler gives channel operator status to gkesden		11:07
* ChanServ removes channel operator status from gkesden		11:07
ciera	yes, thanks for that	11:07
gkesden	i work mostly with ugrad classes and labs here	11:07
ciera	those were students in my SE course	11:08
humph	they are doing good work, ciera	11:08
gkesden	as you can tell, i know the important people here	11:08
* slef (n=mjr@serene.ttllp.co.uk) has joined #teachingopensource		11:09
gkesden	So, we've had a busy couple of weeks on the mailing list	11:09
gkesden	I'm curious to see if we've got a center of mass in terms of the priorities	11:09
gregdek	How do we whip it into a frenzy of activity?  :)	11:09
ctyler	http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Category:Projects # Looks like 5 centres of mass shaping up (?)	11:10
* gregdek looks.		11:11
* lazzurs clearly needs to write a wiki page		11:11
lazzurs	or two	11:11
slef	hi - is this open floor or moderated or what?	11:11
lh	I've been having some success asking FOSS projects to list themselves as mentors. I'd like to see a few more folks on that list, but the next step would be matchmaking between those folks and professors.	11:11
* mchua has been slacking on journals, sorry... attack of the RSI took place, will try to fix late tonight		11:11
ctyler	slef: gkesden is leading	11:11
gkesden	hahah	11:11
gkesden	Well, I'm looking at the moment	11:12
humph	lh: I'll add for Mozilla	11:12
lh	humph: thank you	11:12
ctyler	for quick reference by letter: [A] FOSS mentorship project (incl. gsoc overflow) [B] OSS directory project [C] OSS education papers in scholarly journals [D] Teaching materials project (cataloging) [E] Teaching Open Source Summit	11:13
gkesden	so, i guess the thing that is of biggest interest to me, personally, is how we successfully get oss into the curriculum	11:13
gkesden	I	11:14
* scarter4 (n=evets@net1.senecac.on.ca) has joined #teachingopensource		11:14
gkesden	My intuition is that the biggest challenge is getting instructors comfortable with projects	11:14
lazzurs	gkesden: to be clear are you talking about university level there?	11:14
ctyler	+1 on getting instructors comfortable	11:14
gkesden	both	11:14
lh	gkesden: agreed. i think finding local FOSS mentors for them will help a great deal.	11:15
gregdek	Send profs to RH POSSE, pls.  :)	11:15
ctyler	gregdek: any applications for POSSE yet?	11:15
gkesden	i think hs teachers right now, in some cases, are more motivated, but also more isolated	11:15
dlavigne1	marketing what is already happening is good, we often don't know who is doing what	11:15
gregdek	ctyler: Many questions, but no official applications.	11:15
gkesden	it also occurs to me at the secondary level that the loss of AP AB is both a loss and an opportunity	11:16
ctyler	AP AB?	11:16
lazzurs	gkesden: agreed all of the teachers I have spoke to are very motivated but lacking guidence on where to go next.	11:16
gkesden	motivated secondary students and teachers are presently homeless	11:16
lh	ctyler: you mentioned yesterday you were going to write about TOS for the O'Reilly Radar. that's certainly a great start.	11:16
slef	ctyler++ (btw what agenda point are we on?)	11:16
gkesden	the second ap course got nuked	11:16
ciera	yikes	11:16
* gregdek has a question: what's the diff between:		11:17
gregdek	http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/OSS_Directory_Project	11:17
gregdek	and	11:17
gkesden	so, on the first point of the agenda about teaching materials	11:17
gregdek	http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/Teaching_Materials_Project	11:17
gregdek	?	11:17
gkesden	presenting them with a structure that is easy to adopt is essential	11:18
mchua	lazzurs: can we point them towards the 5 projects on tos? are the people there ready to harness newcomers?	11:18
ctyler	I think OSS_Directory_Project was to be a catalog of successful projects, Teaching_Materials_Project was to be a catalog of (remixable?) teaching materials	11:18
gkesden	for example, well-known skill-building and familiarization exercises before real bugs and features	11:18
lh	ctyler: that's my understanding from Ross	11:19
gregdek	gkesden: Seems like the strategy is to identify as many available materials as possible, and then fill gaps. If, after an assessment, we feel that skill-building exercises are missing, we add them.	11:19
ctyler	gkesden: I think there are two skillsets here, and both are a challenge to first learn and then teach. The first is operating at scale (large projects, real world) and the second is operating in community.	11:20
gkesden	yes, yes	11:20
* gregdek wonders if it's useful to build a basic curriculum framework first, or to get the fullest possible assessment of available materials first, or to do them in parallel?		11:20
* ctyler votes parallel		11:21
gkesden	gregdek: My own intuition would be to start with one or two, turn the wheel, and see what is learned	11:21
gregdek	"start with one or two..." clarify?	11:22
gkesden	if we take one or two projects and provide really good ramps, we can put a lot of effort into them	11:22
rossand	In the context of TOS, I'd like to suggest it makes sense to catalog projects that are actively engaged in teaching. For example: seeking mentors/interns or producing/distributing teaching materials. I'm not sure there's need to produce a galactic encyclopedia of FOSS.	11:22
gkesden	we can also learn a bunch	11:22
gkesden	if they are widely adopted, even a couple of projects can have a huge impact	11:23
gkesden	I also think it is easier to market one or two than a menu	11:23
lazzurs	gregdek: well the way I have started working is to match up the goals in the the curriculum with what we can provide from the open source developement model	11:24
lh	so, we have the work that ralph et al. are doing with hfoss, and the OpenMRS project has already put together a curriculum to train developers in rwanda. http://blog.openmrs.org/?p=93	11:24
ciera	what courses are these resources aimed at? courses specifically on oss, or general courses that can use oss as part of the existing curriculum?	11:24
gregdek	rossand: My only concern is that if we provide a bunch of materials without context, already overburden profs won't have a context to start with -- whereas a basic curriculum framework, and I mean *basic*, would be: 1. what is a patch? 2. what is revision control? and so forth.	11:25
lh	seems like a great deal of work has already been done for this one project, which has the added benefit of appeal from a humanitarian angle.	11:25
ctyler	gkesden: still trying to understand "one or two projects" -- is that one or two courses? one or two open source projects that we build courses around? one or two schools?	11:25
gkesden	ih: which one?	11:25
lh	gregdek: how intensive would such a beginner's course need to be to be effective	11:25
lh	gkesden: openmrs = open medical record system project, for use in the developing world, mostly javva	11:26
lazzurs	gregdek: why not match up the teaching materials you are looking to provide with the requirements of the courses you are targeting?	11:26
rossand	gregdek: Agreed. That was where I was headed. Focus rather than a very broad scope makes sense. There is a risk of course...	11:26
gkesden	ctyler: one or two open source projects for which we establish ramps. Exercises to help students become comfortable with the scale, in particular	11:26
mchua	also, the tos pages mention oss in the context of non-cs curriculums - business, sociology, etc... is that an interest/focus of anyone here or is it back burner while the sw development stuff gets underway?	11:26
rossand	How do we decide what to focus on or not? i.e. picking one project over another.	11:26
gkesden	il: thx	11:26
lh	mchua: i am very interested in that but think we should nail down the SW side of things first.	11:27
gregdek	My take: any project that has a leader, who is committed to leading and making things happen, will make progress.	11:27
ctyler	gkesden, lh: the concern with focusing on one or two open source projects is that it's too easy to overwhelm the project. If we try similar things across more projects, it scales better.	11:27
lh	rossand: i think choosing a project that already has some academic support behind it would be helpful. fewer barriers to overcome, some academics already sold.	11:27
lazzurs	mchua: for me that is something that we are working on from the start as it is a requirement of the curriculum here	11:28
rossand	lh: agreed. Good point.	11:28
gkesden	rossand: mozilla seems to have a huge effort. If there is one with clearly non-computer humanitarian goals, that might be good, too.	11:28
lh	ctyler: agreed, but if we have a proven model we can use adapt it for use with other projects.	11:28
gkesden	well, I think all of us need to run interference for the projects we pick	11:28
gregdek	Fedora, Mozilla, and the HFOSS projects are already doing this stuff.	11:28
lh	gkesden: completely agreed.	11:28
rossand	gregdek: Sounds like the "let many flowers bloom approach" with a natural expectation that projects already doing work will tend to emerge more quickly - agreeing with lh.	11:29
gregdek	Yeah, I think that's right.	11:29
gkesden	if we can put together good structure, teach the tools, exercises with the code, and the community can support it	11:29
gkesden	gregdek: whmmm. I'm wondering how much, for example, Mozilla can bloom without more help	11:30
mchua	lazzurs: will ping you on that after meeting - definitely want to hear more. :)	11:30
ctyler	humph and I have been wondering if it makes sense for schools to develop faculty expertise in specific projects, and to network between the schools to cross-collaborate. E.g., for Moz stuff, students from any school can interface with humph@seneca, for Apache stuff, $x@$y, for Gnome, $a@$b, etc	11:30
ctyler	virtualize this a bit	11:30
gregdek	ctyler: I think that if we set up the structure appropriately, that kind of thing will just happen.	11:30
* lh agrees with gregdek		11:31
* fardad (n=fardad@CPE0015e9772999-CM0014e88eeb56.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #teachingopensource		11:31
gregdek	fardad!	11:31
fardad	Hello...	11:31
lazzurs	agreed, the issue is getting the students and teachers aware of the facilities available to them in the community once you have all of the materials in place	11:31
gkesden	ciera: you're playing -- your thoughts?	11:31
lh	perhaps the best use of the FOSS mentor projects directory [A] is to ask those projects to teach professors the "basics" of FOSS - the what is a patch, what is bug, how to use an issue tracker	11:31
ciera	well, I think faculty contacts will help a lot	11:32
mchua	I put down #3 and #4 on the agenda http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/IRC_Meetings/2009-03-24/Agenda to start the "that kind of thing will just happen" ball that gregdek and lh mentioned rolling, if folks think that would be useful now	11:32
ciera	having a mentor on the project helped our students	11:32
mchua	#	11:32
mchua	# Plans for 09-10 school year, and activities over the summer to prep? (Go around the circle)	11:32
mchua	# Problems encountering that you would like the metabrain to ponder, and tips/expertise you can share? (Go around the circle)	11:32
lh	after these initial lessons, we could help these professors engage with a FOSS project that is appropriate to their needs in the classroom.	11:32
ciera	yes, that's basically what we do now	11:33
ciera	students enter the projects with basic information on software process	11:33
ciera	the main goal is to get them to engage with other developers and dive into a large codebase	11:33
lh	ciera: wonderful, but i was referring to teaching professors who may not have that domain expertise.	11:33
lh	agreed that both groups need mentoring.	11:34
ciera	I think what we need to know though is what their goals are	11:34
ciera	why would they want to use OSS?	11:34
lazzurs	ciera: indeed there has to be something in this for the tutors/teachers as well as the students	11:35
ctyler	I agree that teach-the-teacher is needed, but otoh, why is no one signed up for POSSE?	11:35
lh	ciera: that would really depend on the individual prof. i can imagine having someone help you write a new curriculum or offer a new type of course is good motivation.	11:35
gkesden	ciera: real world experience, external validation, path that doesn't end with graduation, tools and process, community	11:36
lh	ctyler: i suspect the poor economy has a lot to do with it.	11:36
gkesden	ciera: most of all, effort=something broadly useful when done	11:37
lazzurs	ciera: in my case it is un the US and not the UK AFAIK	11:37
lh	perhaps we are putting the cart before the proverbial horse. would it be more useful for us to start with a document/video that sells professors on the value of teaching open source, pointing them to tos for further support and mentoring?	11:37
slef	ok, I'll bite: what's POSSE?	11:37
lh	slef: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Professors_Open_Source_Summer_Experience	11:37
lazzurs	lh: exactly	11:37
lazzurs	I have been using the Stephen Fry video recently for just that to show why FOSS is a good thing(tm)	11:38
rossand	ctyler: lh: Is there danger that some events are perceived as vendor-specific?	11:38
mchua	well, who's the target for posse? profs who have heard about this oss thing but don't know how to teach it, is my guess.	11:38
lazzurs	but something along similar lines explaining why it would be a good thing to them would be even better	11:38
lh	rossand: possible, but i am not sure how much that would stave off prof. interest.	11:39
slef	I'm guessing that Clemson Uni isn't in the EU, so that's why no profs I know would be signed up.	11:39
mchua	that's a huge chasm to cross, from my limited experience.	11:39
gregdek	If all of the profs are in Europe, I'd hold it in Europe. srsly.	11:39
gkesden	who is involved at clemson?	11:39
lh	can the educators here comment on continuing education requirements for profs? maybe the lack of interest is because such a workshop does not meet those requirements.	11:39
gregdek	Right now, the goal is to get the thing off the ground.  :)	11:39
gregdek	gkesden: A local user group that can get us space, cheap.	11:39
mchua	why would i want to teach it, I don't know how, am i going to get support after posse because how can I possibly learn everything needed to navigate this new world in a week, how did others do it, etc.	11:40
lazzurs	gregdek: I should be able to fill a room with teachers soon in the UK	11:40
gkesden	gregdek: 'k, my alma mater, was on the faculty for a bit	11:40
gregdek	gkesden: Hm. We should talk.  :)	11:40
gregdek	lazzurs: Maybe we should talk as well.	11:40
* lh is sensing that a "why teaching open source in your classroom is a good thing(tm)" communications strategy is needed		11:40
gkesden	gregdek: plenty of friends over there	11:40
lazzurs	lh: indeed	11:40
ctyler	It seems incredible to me that there aren't more faculty that realize that open source is here to stay and on the way to dominance in our industry.	11:41
gregdek	Here's the thing: the goal is to get *any* professor workshop going, for as cheap as possible.	11:41
slef	lh: I'm thinking that some market research is needed to sense anything but ICBW and it may already exist.	11:41
mchua	lh: what i'd actually love is for the profs here to write their getting-started stories - from "I didn't know what OSS was" to "and now I'm teaching it."	11:41
gregdek	Something to say "hey, we did it, and it was awesome, and here are REAL PROFS who took it, and we're gonna do it again!"	11:41
gkesden	ctyler: don't think that is the barrier, many faculty don't care about industrial cs, oss or otherwise	11:41
lh	gregdek: i think you need to start issuing invitations to specific people who are interested, use the time to develop some case studies too	11:42
humph	what I don't get is that if you teach software, and you want to show your students real software, open source is really the best way, leaving alone the issues of "open" as open.	11:42
humph	I think profs don't do it because they are scared of it	11:42
slef	Do we have any market research? Maybe as a by-product of past work by others groups?	11:42
humph	it's bloody big and complicated vs. some toy thing you can use term ater term	11:43
lh	humph: this argues for case studies. if another professor is doing this, clearly it is accessible. useful. :)	11:43
humph	I'm doing it, it can be done	11:43
gregdek	humph is dead right.	11:43
ctyler	Our hour is 2/3rds up, can I raise the question of how we're going to proceed going forward? I'd like to suggest that we need a leader for each subproject to organize that project and get it going, and that the subprojects should give an update at the monthly conference calls.	11:43
slef	please can we do research before collecting case studies?	11:43
gkesden	it is also easier to cook up something static than to learn something big and dynamic	11:43
mchua	would the profs in here be willing to do an interview over IRC to get the case study stuff out, if it's not already?	11:44
humph	gkesden: and less useful, imho	11:44
gkesden	slef: what specific questions?	11:44
slef	found http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/resources/vre-report.xml	11:44
gkesden	humph: agreed	11:44
* humph notes that Mozilla/Creative Commons are doing a case study on our course here starting soon - https://wiki.mozilla.org/Education/EduCourse		11:44
slef	gkesden: I don't have specific questions. General topic seems to be "what's stopping you teaching FOSS?"	11:44
mchua	humph: do you already have a "my story" out there I've missed? if not i'd love to get some braindumps from you and the other profs here on irc and clean them up into postable things	11:44
lh	slef: we have some decent anecdotal evidence gathered from educators at a few conferences	11:45
humph	mchua: ctyler has a good paper on this - http://chris.tylers.info/ols2008/opensource-seneca-ols2008.pdf	11:45
gregdek	slef: Exactly! And the anecdotal evidence that lh refers to shows some very strong trends, that we think are actionable.	11:45
humph	mchua: I can talk to you about it, sure	11:45
lh	ctyler suggested we assign project leaders and figure out next steps in the next 15 minutes, +1 to that	11:46
* gregdek agrees with ctyler, +1		11:46
mchua	humph: ooh, nice framework, thanks!	11:46
slef	anecdotes are insightful, but they're not data and should be built on	11:46
mchua	humph: will ping post meeting.	11:46
mchua	ctyler +1	11:46
slef	ctyler +1	11:47
ctyler	volunteers then? :-)	11:47
lh	i'm happy to lead the cataloging of projects who are willing to mentor students and educators [A]	11:47
ctyler	excellent! Need leaders for [B] OSS directory project [C] OSS education papers in scholarly journals [D] Teaching materials project (cataloging) [E] Teaching Open Source Summit	11:48
gregdek	I'm happy to drive [D].	11:48
lazzurs	ctyler: I am willing to help with D as I am going to be doing this anyhoo	11:48
lazzurs	gregdek: excellent :)	11:48
lh	gregdek: will be happy to help you with D also.	11:48
gregdek	ALthough I think that [B] and [D] are perhaps strongly related, and may end up subsuming B.  :)	11:49
dlavigne1	I'll help with C	11:49
gregdek	s/help with/lead?  :)	11:50
dlavigne1	I think mchua is leading	11:50
ctyler	And I think Ross Gardler was up for B	11:50
gregdek	mchua: Are you leading [C]?	11:50
lh	ctyler: correct. ross is at apachecon eu this week, but he mentioned on list that he wanted to drive B.	11:50
ctyler	I need someone to run with D, I'll liase with that group for FSOSS logistics	11:50
ctyler	Sorry, I mean E	11:51
gkesden	So, no one is stepping up to E. I'm happy to do that. But, I'm not the most connected member,myself	11:51
gregdek	Will [E] be held at Seneca, or do we know yet?	11:51
gkesden	but, absent other volunteers, I can run with it	11:51
ctyler	gregdek: We're good for the first [E] to be held at Seneca, and hope there will be more elsewhere.	11:52
* ctyler steps out (late!) to go teach, will read logs later		11:52
* lh waves goodbye to ctyler		11:52
jsmith	ctyler: Would [E] include teaching open source outside of a higher-education environment?	11:52
humph	jsmith: what do you have in mind?	11:53
gregdek	Clearly lower education.  ;)	11:53
jsmith	humph: I teach classes on open-source Asterisk for a living	11:53
humph	I'm not sure that's the same thing, but others can correct me	11:53
slef	can we query projects now, here, later, elsewhere? Like why does [D] settle for "open licence" and not a FOSS licence? There are already several things under open licences but they seem to struggle	11:54
gkesden	slef: that seems like a big discussion	11:54
humph	slef: honestly, the "F" argument is not what's happening here	11:54
* mchua|xo (i=4c7608bc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-774d839fc2ead755) has joined #teachingopensource		11:54
humph	you can find plenty of places for it, I'd encourage you to have it elsewhere	11:54
gregdek	slef: I would rather gather as many materials as possible, and categorize them so that people can make their own choices.	11:55
gregdek	There are many materials that profs have made available without any license at all, for instance.	11:55
mchua|xo	Argh, sorry folks - computer making me take an rsi break	11:55
gregdek	Bye Mel. *hugs*	11:55
slef	humph: I mean, whether we settle for reproducible or aim for reusable/modifiable somehow...	11:55
slef	gregdek: so it's cataloguing/gathering, not production?	11:55
gregdek	slef: It's both. But it starts with cataloguing/gathering.	11:56
gregdek	Both are necessary.	11:56
lh	mchua|xo: be well.	11:56
gkesden	okay -- so, licensing aside -- what else can we achieve right now?	11:56
mchua|xo	gregdek: nah, I just booted an xo instead :)	11:56
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dlavigne1	there are many existing oer resources available	11:56
dlavigne1	oer==open educational resource	11:56
mchua|xo	(the mchua acct is on the laptop with the locked kbd)	11:56
humph	my work to develop such material will continue at Mozilla/Seneca, but linking to if seems a good idea (vs. trying to move it all here)	11:57
gregdek	Ayup.	11:57
gregdek	If it's a big link farm, that's fine, so long as it's (a) current, (b) well-categorized, (c) easy to find, and (d) easy to use.	11:57
slef	gkesden: did anyone answer # Is there interest in a weekly list summary? Mchua	11:58
gregdek	Oh, yes!	11:58
lh	dlavigne1: there are many. i think it would be helpful to have FOSS projects evaluate the resources for usefulness for their individual projects	11:58
slef	from http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/IRC_Meetings/2009-03-24/Agenda	11:58
gkesden	slef: No answer, but I think there is	11:58
gregdek	We should probably have every leader reporting weekly to the list about progress.	11:58
mchua|xo	I'll be reading and summarizing the mailing list archives so far tonight, since I need to catch up too... don't know that I can keep it up but there will be at least one ;)	11:59
slef	should we document that it's expected of leaders and check they're ok with that?	11:59
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mchua|xo	+1 to gregdek!	11:59
lh	gregdek: +1	11:59
slef	mchua|xo: thanks. I'm feeling a bit snowed by the TOS list.	12:00
gregdek	It's a big 'un.  :)	12:00
mchua	I'll take a run through the journals [C] conversation and summarize it to the list tonight, and see if it is something I can run with further depending on the direction that takes. If not, I'll find a successor.	12:00
dlavigne1	mchua: if you can't, I can lead	12:00
mchua	(now that my laptop is unlocked and I can read the backlog and reply belatedly.)	12:00
mchua	dlavigne1: YAY!	12:00
dlavigne1	mchua: we can touch base later	12:01
mchua	dlavigne1: yep.	12:01
slef	small request: try to link the wiki project pages to the summary mails, please.	12:01
* slef is cheeky		12:01
gkesden	lesse', what loose ends are left for now?	12:02
mchua	slef: good idea! feel free to yell at me if I forget that in the first summary round and I'll fix it (but I'll try to remember).	12:03
mchua	gkesden: next meeting time?	12:03
slef	mchua: I'll try to remember but my memory is fried and I've no resources for TOS yet ;-)	12:03
gkesden	we've got a concall monday	12:03
* herson (n=azneita@121.97.139.164) has joined #teachingopensource		12:04
gregdek	WHEN IS MY REPORT DUE, BOSS?	12:04
gkesden	do we want to follow-up with an irc later in the week? wednesday or thursday?	12:04
slef	gkesden: http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/TOS_Conference_Call suggests monday week. Is it wrong?	12:04
* humph lives on irc, will be happy to chat with people whenever		12:04
gkesden	slef: Nope! I am	12:04
* lh seconds humph		12:05
gkesden	How about we do this again tuesday?	12:05
slef	humph: catch you after the meeting?	12:05
lazzurs	heh I guess we all do then	12:05
humph	slef: I'm here	12:05
humph	gkesden: I'll happily join if you want to meet next tues, sure	12:06
slef	I think I'm out of office, but I've no resources, so go ahead and I'll read logs.	12:06
gkesden	who is in for next week, same time?	12:06
* mchua cheers for logs		12:07
lh	+1 same time next week, same bat channel	12:07
* gregdek likes this time.		12:07
slef	finally got answer from calendar server - I'm 50-50	12:07
mchua	+1 same time same place (though I may be traveling next week, but can usually make this time)	12:07
dlavigne1	+1	12:07
gkesden	okay -- let's do it again next week and see what evolves on email between now and then	12:09
gkesden	exciting stuff!	12:09
humph	thanks for leading, gkesden	12:09
lh	gkesden: yes, thank you.	12:09
* azneita has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))		12:09
gkesden	thanks ya'll	12:09
slef	thanks gkesden	12:09